Interview: Society of the Silver Cross

Joe Reineke spent the ‘90s and early ‘00s fronting the criminally overlooked and underrated alternative rock bands the Meices (‘92 – ‘96) and the Alien Crime Syndicate (‘97 – ‘04) without a ton of fanfare or mainstream recognition. With a penchant for writing songs that were as influenced by The Replacements as they were power-pop, Reineke flirted with major labels (releasing albums on London/Polygram) and indies (Empty, The Control Group) alike while grinding it out on the road and playing in front of dozens in small college towns from coast to coast. The Meices biggest claim to fame came via the only song by the band that can be currently found on Spotify, “Ready Steady Go,” which was featured on the Empire Records soundtrack. Alien Crime Syndicate, which featured drummer Nabil Ayers, who would later go on to co-found Sonic Boom Records, write a best-selling book (My Life in the Sunshine), and become president of the Beggars record label, supported bands like Tommy Stinson and The Figgs on the road, and released a number of well-reviewed, but poor selling, albums.

As Reineke explains in a recent conversation, he moved to Seattle where he hung out with Guns N’ Roses bassist Duff McKagan who convinced him to open a recording studio. Orbit Audio has been in existence for over 25 years with Reineke and his wife, Karyn Gold-Reineke, at the helm. Countless Seattle bands have recorded at the studio as have artists like Beyonce, Vance Joy, Alice in Chains and Macklemore. Gaining knowledge from the other side of the desk, the couple decided to take advantage of their situation (the studio, the instruments, etc) and formed Society of the Silver Cross, a decidedly unique sounding band using non-traditional instruments to create haunting and mystical soundtrack-like songs. It’s a far cry from the type of music Reineke started his career with but equally as appealing and of another dimension.

During COVID, while most of us were binging Netflix, baking sourdough bread, cleaning out our closets and having regular meetups via Zoom, the Reinekes were writing material for their second album, Festival of Invocations, and building a beautiful studio (Temple of the Trees) on property they own in Seattle that matches the aura of the music they were creating.

It’s been a long, long time since I’ve interviewed Reineke so we started our conversation with the songwriter/producer filling me in on how he wound up in Seattle.

Help me bridge that gap between Alien Crime Syndicate and this project. You ran or owned a studio after Alien Crime Syndicate was done?

JOE: There was an overlap there. Duff actually helped me start the studio while ACS was still active. I thought I would just be recording our next record and some friends for maybe six months. 20 years later and we’re still here.

When did the two of you start recording music together?

KARYN: Around 2017. We met about five years before that. We met at Mike Squires’ “Christmas Party for Misfits”. We started talking, then dating, and eventually got married. We didn’t play music right away for some reason. It just wasn’t the right time. Then Joe was doing some solo work and wanted to play some shows in Europe. He asked if I wanted to come and play some keys for the shows, and I said, sure, I’ll go. So, we did that. We wanted to do it simply, acoustically, without a bunch of equipment. We thought about what we could bring and decided on the harmonium, which we had at home, traditionally used for chanting. We did that tour, and I learned a bunch of Joe’s songs. But then we couldn’t help ourselves and started fiddling around in the hotel rooms during our days off. Leading up to the trip, we had written a song together and just kept writing. The combination of the instrument and our different backgrounds and styles evolved into a new sound so we decided to officially form a group under a name.

Do you have a musical background?

KARYN: I do, yeah. My whole life, I grew up with classical piano and played in bands with various instruments like drums and guitar. But I’ve always played mostly for fun, not really trying to do anything professional like Joe has. I’ve pretty much played constantly since I was a wee little thing.

When you say the two of you started writing songs together, tell me about that. Has it evolved at all or do you still write the same way today?

JOE: At its core, we still write the same way, with ideas and songs blossoming similarly. There’s a theory that songs don’t come from you; they come through you. For us, we just tune into this frequency, and that’s it.

We also like to have experiences when we write together. For instance, we might go to a cabin in the woods for the weekend, bring our acoustic instruments and our dog, and just hang out with no phones. We went on a “dogcation” with our puppy and our instruments. We stayed in funky places like a cabin in Big Sur and a treehouse in the Santa Cruz Mountains. We stayed at a ranch in Eastern Washington. It helps break out of the walls. We wrote “The Mighty Factory of Death” in the treehouse, which was initially called “Treehouse.”

KARYN: We make little working titles for things.

JOE: It had this crazy chord movement and led us to write songs in non-traditional manners. “Rajasthan” on our record, the last song on it, has one chord and one lyric. It’s about seeing more with less, being more subtractive in production. If you think about the harmonium, it’s a tabletop pump organ. You pump it with one hand and play the keys with the other, so you’re limited in what you can do. This limitation inspires creativity because there’s less to work with. We find that inspiring.

Is it easier to write with more?

KARYN: We like full instrumentation, but we don’t get into that until we’re in the studio. The core of the song is usually the acoustic 12-string and the harmonium. Sometimes we use an Indian autoharp called the Shahi Baaja. It might sound like a guitar but different. We might write something with that and the acoustic guitar. Usually, it’s just two parts we’re each playing.

If you write a song with just a guitar and lyrics, it can stand on its own or be played as a full rocked-out version. Almost all our songs work as an acoustic duo. Not every single song will work like that, but almost all of them do. The strong parts are our foundation, and everything else interacts with that. Sometimes we pull things out and let others come in later. They are good bones to work with. It feels like it’s enough, whatever this needs from you.

JOE: When we play live, it’s a full band, it’s a four piece.

Have you always had an interest in non-traditional instruments, or did you come across them through other music?

KARYN: It’s funny because with the Shahi Baaja, which is on almost all of our songs, our friend called and said he was going deep on Craigslist. He thought it looked like something we would like and sent us the link. We checked it out and found it haunting and drony sounding. We ended up buying it and were inspired to use it in our music.

We were inspired and just started incorporating these instruments into our songs. The harmonium was already something we had, so it naturally fit when we started playing together. We also use a lot of weird synthesizers, which comes from being connoisseurs of unique noise-making instruments. Joe’s studio always had cool toys to play with.

JOE: It’s been years, but I got this synthesizer called a Swarmatron, which is similar to a Mellotron but more unique. There’s only 100 made. It’s used in cinema soundtracks and has been used by Trent Reznor. He used it exclusively on the soundtrack for The Social Network.

KARYN: It’s very scary sounding. You could use it on a horror soundtrack. It’s unsettling and creates tension, with its eight oscillators spinning in different directions. It adds a unique texture to our music.

Did you draw inspiration from soundtracks or other sources when using these instruments?

KARYN: It’s mostly about creative experimentation. Sometimes I get inspired by strange, non-musical sounds in the world. For our first album, we used recordings of cosmic sounds from NASA, which are eerie and atmospheric.

JOE: We also draw inspiration from chanting CDs and classical music. It’s almost like being inspired by classical music when you play metal. Those two worlds are actually a lot closer than you think they are. Even Classical music’s movements and structures are surprisingly similar to metal. Our music has been called “metal adjacent” before. I like that. Music is ultimately this fantasy that you paint on silence. Some people are into the theatrical aspects of music, but for us, it’s about painting these fantasy worlds that listeners can walk into and experience.

I’ve been listening to your record as my go-to sleep album. It helps me drift into that fantasy world. It’s a bit spooky and dark but also spiritual, tribal, moody, sci-fi, and Western. I can definitely hear the metal influence, too. I thought that with some heavier guitar, it could even be a Doom metal record. When I interviewed Jeff Young, formerly of Megadeth, he mentioned that classical guitar training influences metal music. He said that classical and metal are more connected than people realize. Did you find any similar connections?

KARYN: I can relate to that. I grew up playing classical music but didn’t like it much until I started writing my own music. I appreciate the freedom classical music gave me, allowing for non-traditional structures and storytelling. It’s something I unconsciously bring into my own music. Even if I don’t listen to classical music now, the creativity and freedom it inspired in me are still present in my work.

I understand you built your studio – Temple of the Trees – during COVID. Which came first: the songs for the record or the studio?

JOE: When you release a record, there’s cycles. We released our record, 1 Verse, and then we did a little trip in Mexico and came back and COVID happened. We started working on the songs before the studio was built. We began writing some songs, like “By the Millions,” while we were in Mexico when COVID hit and everything was falling down like dominos.

It was Karyn’s idea to use the downtime constructively. We could bake a bunch of bread. We could knit some mittens or a hat. Or, we could build a studio. And we saved all the trees we cut down, milled them, and put them up inside of the studio.

KARYN: We were writing a lot during that period, pretty faithfully. A lot of people had a lot of time, but a lot of our time ended up getting spread out to these different things we needed to do. We never really felt idle but we did have some more time to write than usual. We knew we wanted to finish the studio and record our album there. We wanted to create a space that would be perfect for our album and future projects. It was a long process, as we acted as our own contractors and learned as we went. When we finally did record, just about everything had been fully realized. There was only one song that we wrote in the studio in the album making process. We had maybe 100 ideas we had saved and then we whittled it down to a dozen. We got down to one of them, it was at the end, and it just wasn’t coming together. It was painful but we had to let that one go. That same day, “Garden of Rituals” came together quickly. It was a bit of an epiphany moment, where letting go of something made room for something new and exciting.

Joe, you’ve worked with many bands with set budgets and deadlines. How challenging was it for you and Karyn to stick to a deadline for this record? Did you set a specific release date or just work as you could and decide when it was ready?

JOE: That’s a great question. There’s always a balance. You can easily end up with a never-ending demo cycle if you don’t set limits. We had to impose some hard deadlines to ensure we stayed on track. We worked backwards from our release date, mapping out when we needed to finish recording, artwork, and everything else.

Traditionally, we’d always have someone else to handle some of these tasks. We have a little help now, there’s a distributor and things like that. But, make no mistake, we’re doing this all ourselves.

I think it serves art better to have a cut off and accept that this was the best record we could make at the moment. I’m not going to make the record I’m making in five years; I’m making the record I’m making now.

I know some that have this fear of letting go. I teach and have some students. I say, “Tread easy when mixing something because it’s the artist’s very last time that they’ll have any say in their music.”

The music sets a tone. It could easily be a soundtrack. there a particular genre of film or type of scene where you see these songs fitting in?

JOE: The real obvious one is those intense scenes where the music helps. But I also think it’s cool when music supervisors choose music that doesn’t fit the scene at all. It’s so messed up. The example is a person does something really violent to somebody else, right? They sit down on their bed, and this beautiful, happy song comes on. It’s so eerie and messed up. It doesn’t make any sense, but it makes beautiful sense at the same time. I’ll just let others decide where they want to put this. But we’ve always thought the band’s sound would do well in these areas.

KARYN: I like how David Lynch describes finding music for his films. He feels like it starts to marry together with the visual scene. He had a song he heard that he wanted to use for something, and he was like, “I’ve got to get this song.” He had somebody track it down, and they found like eight different versions of it. He kept going through them, saying, “Yeah, that’s the song, but that’s not the one.” There was just something about the one he chose, which ended up being with the composer Angelo Badalamenti, who he started working with exclusively. It was the way he delivered that performance in that song that made Lynch know, “This is the right one. This is what I want.” I feel like there is that kind of cool synergy between sound and visuals, and I would just be super excited for that match to be somewhere in the universe, those two puzzle pieces were supposed to fit together, and they finally find each other and whatever experience the person watching has becomes whole and complete.

How do you listen to music?

KARYN: I love albums. I feel like albums are put together to provide an experience from start to finish. With both of our albums, we’ve kept that in mind—considering the journey you go on from song to song. There’s an intention behind why the first song is first and the last is last, and the journey you go on in between. It’s almost like reading a book. You get a much more complete story if you read it from start to finish versus just picking out chapter eight. Maybe it’s great, but you’re missing a lot of context and other characters and things that enrich the overall experience.

I do like playlists for stuff that I’m more familiar with, like an old, cool ’80s post-punk playlist or something—that can be great. But I’m a fan of the album, and I feel like this singles-driven, “next, next, next” mindset has been a disservice to music. There’s a much deeper experience you can have with albums.

We were just talking about that with someone the other night—how you used to buy an album, and it was a big deal, especially as a kid, because you had to spend your money on it. And that was a lot of money back then. You’d go sit in your room, study the jacket, listen to every song, and just want to absorb it fully. You had almost a relationship with that album and the experience of listening to it. I think that’s been lost a bit.

Is there anything you’ve gone back to that you thought was the best thing in the world when you were a teenager but now realize wasn’t really that good?

KARYN: I think it’s okay to not be the same person later and not have the same relationship to it. Sometimes you do go back and listen, and you’re like, “Wow, this is cheesy.” Other times, when I’ve listened to old stuff, I can’t believe either how great the fidelity is or how terrible it is. I didn’t notice any of that growing up—I was just into the music.

JOE: It’s almost like a relationship with… let’s use a different analogy, a food analogy, with Pizza Hut pizza. I loved it as a kid. But now? That place sucks. You wouldn’t catch me dead in a Pizza Hut these days.

I just want to touch back on this relationship with longer play records and the influence of Spotify and streaming platforms. I’m totally guilty of this sometimes—when I check out a new artist or a suggested artist, what’s the first thing I do? I play the most popular song. And we found that the popular tracks just keep getting more popular because more people are doing the same thing—checking out what’s already popular.

Your album tells a story, there’s a flow to it. It’s almost like listening continuously on Spotify or on CD might be a better way to listen to the album so that you don’t have to flip it over, you can just listen straight through. How important is sequencing to you?

KARYN: I do think about that, especially with vinyl. Even just that pause between Side A and Side B should almost feel like there’s a sense of resolution and completion. Then, when Side B starts, it can feel like entering a new scene with its own curve and trajectory. So yeah, that’s definitely a factor. But we also make sure that it flows from the very first to the very last track, regardless of the format.

JOE: Karyn sequenced this record. I had my ideas, but I was just like, she’s so good at this—super good at it. We both thought “Circle Cast Around” would be a good opening song because it just feels like an opening track.

KARYN: I like it first because it feels like an invitation to step into some magic—a new experience that’s a bit more ethereal.

I used to love making mixtapes growing up. I’d spend a lot of time thinking about the order—how one song would finish and how you’d feel, and then what should come next. Maybe it’s just a nerdy thing I liked to do.

JOE: I remember making mixtapes for a girl I liked. I wanted them to be special, with songs that told her all the things I couldn’t say in person. These were all my feelings I couldn’t express, but somehow, I hoped she’d listen and understand me in a different way.

Did you have a go-to song that you put on every mixtape?

KARYN: I made so many different ones, and they were all different, but they probably all had something by The Cure on them.

I recognize some of the other contributors on the record. How did they come in? Like, Skerik—when I heard the horns and sax, I thought of him. He was in Critters Buggin, right?

JOE: Yeah, he’s in Critters Buggin, and he plays in Les Claypool’s Frog Brigade with Sean Lennon. He pretty much gigs every night.

And then there’s Mike Musburger from The Posies.

JOE: Mike was the main drummer in The Fastbacks, too. Duff McKagan was actually their first drummer.

Did they come to the studio and record with you?

JOE: Yeah, they did. We didn’t outsource anything. Some people record at home and just send in their tracks, but we wanted everyone in the studio, with the vibe and energy influencing things. When two or more people are in the studio together, there’s a certain energy that’s greater than the sum of its parts. It’s something you can’t replicate when you’re apart. There’s this creative energy that just happens in the studio. I can’t fully describe it, but I know it happens. When everyone’s together, wanting to create something special, the ideas get elevated.

I’m guessing you’re not going to hop in a van and travel across the United States, playing every club from here to New York, right?

JOE: No, not every club. But we are planning on hitting the road a bit. We’re actually heading to Europe in September. We’ve got a festival over there and a couple of other shows in London, I think. And then we’re going to Japan. I won’t say too much about it, but we’ll probably be visiting Asia a lot more, and Europe as well.

What’s the driving factor behind these tours?

JOE: Our manager has a lot of relationships with labels in Japan, so he’s got the Asia connection unlocked. We also just got an agent in Europe, so we’re lining up a lot more shows over there. We’re planning a 25-date tour at the beginning of the year after this one.

KARYN: It is really helpful to look at Spotify numbers. It’s interesting because our numbers seem to be a lot stronger outside the U.S., in other countries. It’s fascinating to see where people are really resonating with our music, sometimes even more than people who are closer by. Following that breadcrumb trail on Spotify is really helpful.

JOE: Spotify is a bit of a double-edged sword. They’re great with data, but not so great with paying artists. They’re excellent at data. The first rule of the game is to know your audience. We’re using that data to our benefit and going to the places where there’s activity.

Is there anything musically that’s exciting you?

KARYN: I tend to listen to a lot of older music. But we’ve played a couple of shows with a really cool band called Headstone Brigade, who are local here. They’re one of our new favorites. They have a less traditional instrumentation, and their songs are really different. We got super excited when we first discovered them. They’re kind of similar to us in a way but doing their own thing. It’s exciting to hear something unique.

JOE: I fell in love with this band called Darkher, a duo from England. Their songs are amazing, and I couldn’t stop listening to them. It’s not really like what we’re doing, but it’s really inspiring. I also like some of King Dude’s stuff and some records by Chelsea Wolfe. We actually did a collaboration with King Dude at the start of the year, which was really cool. It helped elevate this record, putting that out first and then the record. So that was super cool.

Do you have any idea why The Meices album Dirty Bird isn’t on Spotify?

JOE: The reason is that when I tried to claim the rights as the rightful owner of the Meices catalog, Spotify wouldn’t let me do it. They just wouldn’t accept it. I was like, “Yo, my name is on all these records as the songwriter. I’ve got all the proof— 8 × 10 publicity shots, whatever you need. I’ll even get my entertainment attorney to call you and let you know.” But they still refused.

By the way, is the Newport Music Hall in Columbus still around?

Yes, it is!

JOE: I’ve got a great Newport story for you because I know you’re from Columbus. When we went in, they said they take a percentage of merchandise sales when bands sell their stuff. We were like, “Oh, hell no!” It was like the last time we played we made $5.

So, we played that show and were just selling a ton of merch—t-shirts, CDs, everything. And every time we sold a box of CDs, I’d tell our buddy Trevor to run out to the van, sneak another box in under his jacket, and restock. At the end of the night, we told the guy, “Yeah, we only sold two CDs,” and he was like, “But your merch table had a line all night!” It was hilarious.

Let’s finish by talking about Alien Crime Syndicate’s drummer, Nabil Ayers. Nabil is now the president of the Beggars label and wrote a best-selling book, My Life in the Sunshine. That’s pretty wild, right?

JOE: Get this, ACS is going to do a reunion, a 20-year, maybe 25-year reunion of the XL From Coast to Coast record. We got offered some pretty good cash to do it at a club in town. We’re putting this whole thing together, and then Nabil—who I love—was like, “Does anybody care? Is anyone gonna go?”

Oh, man.

JOE: (Mike) Squires, the other guy in the band, just said, “Shut the fuck up. We’re doing this because we’re going to have fun together! That’s the reason we’re doing it.” And Nabil kind of snapped out of it immediately, like, “Yeah, of course. Fun!” It was like, “Nabil, having fun is so much fun. Remember that?” He’s a pretty savvy guy. He’s not totally businessy, but he’s got a lot of that going on. He’s got a lot of responsibility, so it makes sense.